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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.08.06 21:37:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Serj Reaper
A ham legion is better in every way than a sac/drake.
no. its barely better than sac and thats it. Still ages behind drake.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.08.06 22:50:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Jin Entres
The skill loss is a joke. It's not much of a loss at all, way overhyped as a dreadful setback. A little annoyance at most.
The ISK cost on the other hand is the primary reason you don't see these in pvp much.
Still enough to keep me away from even buying skillbooks. Prefer to train up another race/ship class/weapon system instead, hell - even get specs to lv5.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.08.06 23:26:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Jin Entres
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Jin Entres
The skill loss is a joke. It's not much of a loss at all, way overhyped as a dreadful setback. A little annoyance at most.
The ISK cost on the other hand is the primary reason you don't see these in pvp much.
Still enough to keep me away from even buying skillbooks. Prefer to train up another race/ship class/weapon system instead, hell - even get specs to lv5.
Seriously. Training level 3 takes maybe 2+ hours. Do you seriously consider that a loss of any significance? Hell, even level 4 at ~1d and a few hours is pretty negligible in the grander scheme of things.
My all lvl5 skills zealot will just rip new one to your "all lv3" legion. The skill levels are there to give bonuses not to be "buffer because you might lose them". And if you prefer it with numbers: with all lv3 skills your legion:
- has less dps
- has shorter gun range
- is slower
than my zealot. Only thing it has better is armor amount (base legion has more than zealot so duh). Still outranging part is enough to solo it with zealot without much risk.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.08.06 23:36:00 -
[4]
What drones? If you use liquid crystal somethings you dont have drones. If you use drones you lose range bonuses. Either way without lv5 you are worse off than zealot/curse.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.08.07 00:01:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 07/08/2009 00:02:38
Originally by: Jin Entres
We weren't discussing the viability of legion v zealot, we were discussing the loss of skillpoints as a deterrent to training. If you don't want to train for one because it's not good enough for the investment compared to other ships, that's fine, but then don't say that the loss of skillpoints is the reason.
I don't fault you for not wanting to train for one, it certainly isn't a great performer as we've seen in this thread.
Yet your deterrent to loss of skillpoint is "train it to lvl3". So are you dumb or just playing one?
And yea viability of legion vs zealot is HEAVILY dependant on skill. lvl5 legion > lv5 zealot. Thus to fly efficiently you need all lv5. Having all lv5 = larger SP loss when you die. So you CAN NOT say those are totally separate things.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.08.07 00:18:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Jin Entres
Of course they are not separate, but you did a convenient switch of argument there. I said the skill loss was rather meaningless and you replied that it was enough to deter you from training them.
The degree to which you risk skillpoints obviously depends on how far you train those skills. I used level 3 as an example that represented a laughable risk. But level 4 and even 5 are still pretty inconsequential from my perspective, compared to the monetary investment.
I said it was enough to deter m from training it. And this is taking EVERYTHING into account, not just "i can sit in ship" training time. If we are talking about skills we are talking all level5. If we are comparing ships, we compare them at level 5. So its bloody obvious all talk by default is about "level 5 skills".
As for monies: im at the point where isk loss on t3 hull is insignificant compared to SP loss.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.08.07 00:39:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jin Entres
You must be a pretty new player then.
Yeah. I bow to you 2003 vet, im not that old.
Quote:
And while normally I would accept that level 5 skills are the standard for comparison, there are two unique characteristics about strategical cruisers that make this a poor standard: the incentive to risk less by training less and the sheer amount of skills that provide inequal bonuses.
Funnily enough if you train less you risk more. If you dont have DPS to kill enemy before he kills you - you are risking it. If you dont max defenses your chance of survival decreases. Electronic skills (lock time, eccm) also are important for re-locking or countering falcons. Power grid? If you dont max it you need to downgrade guns or put less plates = less dps or less tank = same as weaker offensive/defensive skills. Result? you might die instead of enemy. So all of subsystems are needed at lv5 if you want to be competetive.
Quote:
You seem to have the naive assumption that you must maximise the risk of skill loss which then renders the whole ship untrainable. Again, take the context of your comment.
read up and stop assuming too much. especially when all your assumptions are wrong.
Quote:
You said nothing of the ship being viable only if the skills were maxed.
Due to me not being "lol newb" but quite decent pvp pilot yes, all my ships must be maxed with proper fits. the ONLY exception is so called "lol-fit" (or that friggin unfortunate phoon... dont ask, had a bad day).
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.08.07 00:57:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jin Entres
It is all very relative and you've stepped into the deep hole of speculation, my friend. Wasting time not flying a ship you could perform with at 90% efficiency is a risk, too, you know. Wasted opportunities. But that's your perogative.
Its called experience. having typhoon escape on 10% armor (1v1 with my bomber) because i had lvl4 covops not lvl5. Surviving on 5% structure because my overheat on sacri gave me another cycle, where rep systems lv4 guy would have died. It all adds up and in the end you know that having lvl5 instead of lvl4 can be and often is major difference. And when we are talking about expensive boats (faction bs, t3 ships, caps) it would be really stupid to die because you lacked this 5% to rep amount/resists or dps.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.08.10 01:02:00 -
[9]
HAM tengu is just so stupidly good over HAM legion
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